SHOULD THE NEW HEALTH SECRETARY BE BANNED FROM COMMUNION?

Kathleen Sebelius has a sterling record as Governor of Kansas.  She reduced the state debt, improved education and worked across the aisle with a Republican legislature.  Now President Obama has nominated her to be his new Secretary of Health.

A number of commentators are saying that she will have a tough time getting confirmed because of her stance on abortion.  She is personally opposed to abortion but she has defended a woman’s right to choose and she has vetoed a number of anti-abortion measures.

Her stance on abortion has caught the eye of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Kansas.   He has ordered her not to receive communion until she repents of her pro-abortion views and he has ordered his priests not to give her communion.

Should she be banned from Communion?

On the one hand she claims to be a practising Catholic and the official teaching of the Catholic church is that abortion is murder.  If she does not knuckle under and submit to that presumably church authorities including her Archbishop have the right to punish her.

On the other hand, Governor Sebelius, as a politician and legislator does not believe she has the right to force her personal beliefs on abortion down the throats of all the citizens of Kansas.  The Pope’s writ on abortion or anything else does not extend beyond the boundaries of his own church.   It is natural enough that in a pluralistic society, there is more than one view on abortion.  The RC church says human life must be protected from conception to death.  But the church has never defined when conception occurs.

I expect Kathleen Sebelius will be confirmed by the Senate rather easily as she should be.

What do you think?

And what do you think about her being banned from communion?  (Incidentally the vast majority of American bishops do not subscribe to this hard line on abortion.)

45 Comments »

  1. 1
    Joe Agnost Says:

    “she will have a tough time getting confirmed because of her stance on abortion.”

    Not with the Dems in charge she won’t!! Sanity will prevail…

    “Should she be banned from Communion?”

    Personally I think that would be a gift!! 😉

    But since (I presume) she ~wants~ to take communion I think banning her is ridiculous.

    As you wrote above – ~her~ stance on abortion is in line with the RCC, she chooses to separate her church from her day job – and that’s the way it should be.

    I wish there were more like her in America!

  2. 2
    Chimera Says:

    You cannot serve two masters at the same time, especially when they are at idealistic loggerheads with one another.

    She’s going to have to choose between her church and her country.

    Tough choice.

    If it were mine to make, I’d tell the church to take a hike and come back when it wants to apologize. But that’s just me. I have no idea what she will do, but I wish her the best of luck.

  3. 3
    Jim Says:

    The way I see it an individual should never invade another individual’s space unless invited. If Jane Doe wants to have an abortion it’s between her and her God. If the Governor or the Bishop can’t stop her then they should both be excommunicated. Some day the world will be totally populated. Will the Bishop volunteer to abort himself to make room for a new birth. If not, then he should have been aborted by someone at birth in order that the world had not become over-populated with many of the children living with starvation. Who is to say that that God didn’t allow us to think of abortion as a means of population control. Has anyone noticed that the Church does not want any good Catholics to become President of the USofA. If it means anything, I, personally, am against abortion.

  4. 4
    SUZANNE Says:

    You want to be a faithful Catholic? You have to live by the Church’s rules.

    If you cannot separate yourself from your actions in the legislature. Morality does not change whether it’s in the legislature or not. When you vote for an immoral law, you commit an act of immorality according to Church teaching. You must therefore suffer the consequences. There are no exceptions.

    On the one hand she claims to be a practising Catholic and the official teaching of the Catholic church is that abortion is murder.

    Catholic teaching is not only that abortion is murder, but that the state must protect the right to life of the unborn child.

    She is therefore not in line with Catholic teaching.

  5. 5
    Cate McB Says:

    Suzanne says:
    “Catholic teaching is not only that abortion is murder, but that the state must protect the right to life of the unborn child.”

    Although Catholic teaching may say the above, no state is under any obligation to follow Catholic teaching. If individuals wish to, that’s up to the individuals involved.

    As for the individual Governor, Kathleen Sebelius, as Chimera said: “She’s going to have to choose between her church and her country.”

  6. 6
    neilmckentyweblog2 Says:

    Suzanne:

    You seem to think that the Pope’s writ extends to the non-Catholic population. It doesn’t. The teaching of the magisterium extends only to Catholics.

    Would you argue that the official teaching of the church that artificial contraception is evil extends beyond the boundaries of the church? I hope not. In fact, most Catholics don’t obey the teaching and for all practical purposes it is null and void.

  7. 7
    Joe Agnost Says:

    Neil: “most Catholics don’t obey the teaching…”

    There are not too many ‘real’ catholics left. People like Suzanne are a dying breed… I know many ‘catholics’, and don’t know a SINGLE one that actually obey all of the catholic rules. The whole forgiveness thing is the biggest scam (and pure genius by the men that invented the RCC – assuring themselves the ability to enjoy life, or ‘sin’ as catholics call it, and still maintain the illusion of following the church), and the ONLY thing keeping the illusion of an obedient flock. Want to ‘sin’? No problems, just go ahead and ‘sin’ but don’t forget to ask for forgiveness afterward! 😉

    Contraception, as Neil mentioned, is the biggest one – how many catholics forgo condoms (or similar contraceptives) and take the risk of pregnancy? Close to NONE! The easiest way out – which many of my friends have taken – is to simply have a vasectomy and then ‘confess’ this ‘sin’ to be forgiven. Problem solved!

    Regarding govenor Sibelius – as Chimera said she’ll have to choose, and if she has a brain in her head she’ll choose her job.

  8. 8
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Joe, “just go ahead and sin but don’t forget to ask for forgiveness afterward”. It doesn’t work like that. “Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us”.

    Suzanne, “She is not in line with Catholic teaching”. Jesus condemned the Pharisess for “placing to heavy a burden on the people”, Most people as Joe says cannot live up to the heavy burdens of Catholic thought. That doesn’t mean they are not practiscing Catholics. Our constitution is the “I Believe”.

    Cate McB, “She is going to have to choose between her Church and her Country’ She can do both, she hasn’t been excommunicated.

  9. 9
    Joe Agnost Says:

    Peter: “It doesn’t work like that.”

    I’m afraid it does… your statement, while not making particular sense to me, doesn’t change the fact that catholics can ‘sin’ all they want and a 5 minute trip to the confession box makes the ‘sin’ go away.

    How can you deny this?

    Or are you saying that it’s not ~supposed~ to work that way? Because I agree, in theory it’s not meant to be used that way – but that doesn’t change the fact that it ~is~ used that way!

    And who doesn’t agree that the men that invented the RCC didn’t put that little stipulation in there so that THEY could continue to ‘sin’ and still hold a position of power within the church…. it’s SO obvious!

  10. 10
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Joe, Forgiveness is unconditional, but it is not magic as you suggest. The Lord’s Prayer places us in a position that when we ask for forgiveness its because we forgave someone else, for a sin against us.

    The Church has the power to” retain sins as well as forgive” by Jesus. The Sacrament of Forgiveness is based on the awareness that we have sinned. The Church could refuse to forgive us, if we hold an unforgiving position against another person.

    The Church is not an invention by men. It was founded by the Son of God. So that people like you and me, can put our questions to God.

  11. 11
    Joe Agnost Says:

    Judging by your response Peter I was right when I said:

    “Or are you saying that it’s not ~supposed~ to work that way? Because I agree, in theory it’s not meant to be used that way – but that doesn’t change the fact that it ~is~ used that way!”

    Why are there so few catholics who don’t use contraception? Why are there so few catholics that actually live their lives by the RCC rules (to the letter)? There might be one or two suzannes out there, but they are a tiny minority….

    Do you (peter) follow the RCC rules to the letter? No birth control. No uttering the lord’s name in vain? No hatred, no secret desires (like your neighbour’s wife)? Not supporting stem cell research……. and on and on…

    My point is that (almost) nobody lives that way, yet many many people still call themselves catholic.

    At the end of the day they figure they can always ask forgiveness – and be serious, is it ever actually denied?

    “The Church is not an invention by men.”

    Of course it is!

    “It was founded by the Son of God.”

    Except that it wasn’t… at least there is no evidence that is was (that’s a better way of saying it). Hell – there’s no evidence that god exists, never mind his “son”!

    “So that people like you and me, can put our questions to God.”

    And why is it that god never speaks (answers)? It’s always some human claiming the speak FOR god…. but never god…. curious no?

  12. 12
    Cate McB Says:

    Peter says,

    Cate McB, “She is going to have to choose between her Church and her Country’ She can do both, she hasn’t been excommunicated.

    Peter,

    Maybe right this minute she can do both, since she hasn’t been excommunicated, but if she continues to be a public figure, the way things are going these days, she’s likely going to have to choose between her Church and her Country. It shouldn’t be that way but it is happening increasingly.

  13. 13
    neilmckentyweblog2 Says:

    Cate:

    She must choose between her church and her country. I wonder.
    I expect Kathleen Sebelius could quiety go to church (and to Communion) in a parish where the local priest is not into deciding whether the communicant is in a state of grace. Even the Archbishop of Washington is not into refusing people communion. So I don’t thi nk she’ll have any trouble.

  14. 14
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Joe, I am a very good Catholic and a sinner. The Church is a teaching authority, it does its best but is also a sinner. Remember how Peter denied Jesus 3 times. And he was our first Pope.

    Jesus came to redeem us from our sinfullness. We don’t have to do anything, but believe.

    This knowledge liberates us and makes us want to do good. St. Paul says, “Grow in the knowledge of God”.

    I have, over the years asked God many questions and never have I not received a reply to my satisfaction. The reply comes to us through our thoughts and the satisfaction is Joy and Peace. Try it.

  15. 15
    Joe Agnost Says:

    Note: I am not trying to insult you Peter, just stating my beliefs.

    “Joe, I am a very good Catholic and a sinner.”

    Peter, I am a very good atheist and I don’t believe in sin.

    “Remember how Peter denied Jesus 3 times”

    No… should I?

    “Jesus came to redeem us from our sinfullness.”

    How did Dawkins put it again? Oh yes: “the idea that Jesus died for our sins is obvious nonsense.” I couldn’t agree more. I can’t, in my wildest imagination, think of a more ridiculous idea than that. Truly.

    “never have I not received a reply to my satisfaction.”

    I’m sure you haven’t… but that doesn’t do anything to dispell my suggestion that god doesn’t ever speak to us – it’s always some human saying they’re speaking FOR god – and that doesn’t instill much confidence (in me) that there is a god. Just power hungry greedy humans looking for another sheep to shear…

  16. 16
    Chimera Says:

    I am neither Catholic not atheist but I don’t believe in sin, either. Anyone who wishes to believe in it is welcome to do so, of course. I don’t get how anyone can live that way, but that’s not my diecision, is it?

    “The Church is a teaching authority, it does its best but is also a sinner.”

    A case of the blind leading the blind, then? No wonder they’re in such a mess!

  17. 17
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Joe, and Chimera, perhaps we have different definations of sin. One defination that the world witnesses all the time is the crimes against humanity and the earth. What do you call it?

    The sinfullness of people whether Church people or not, are defined as acts of injustice, against each other, from a lesser degree to a severe degree.

    The act of God dying and Ressurrecting as an act of forgiveness and redemption is the most compassionate idea I could ever imagine.

  18. 18
    Jim Says:

    I hope that y’all realize that when you are blogging with Peter, that you are addressing the first Pope.

  19. 19
    Chimera Says:

    Peter, the entire concept of “sin” is something that is imposed upon the “lower” beings within the scope of a religion by the “higher” beings whose aim it is to stay in control of those in the lower bunks, by making them feel worthless on a personal level so they won’t be tempted to try and lift themselves above their assigned stations.

    In that frame, sin defines itself.

    Almost every culture in history had a dying-and-rising god. It’s not a concept limited to Catholicism. It’s not even original.

  20. 20
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Chimera, “Almost every culture in history had a dying and rising God”

    Its only Jesus, who shares His Divinity with everyone so that we will die and rise with Him and enter into everlasting Life.

    There is no better Good News.

    Jim, we are all greater than the Pope, we are all Gods children, even the Pope.

  21. 21
    Joe Agnost Says:

    “The act of God dying and Ressurrecting as an act of forgiveness and redemption is the most compassionate idea I could ever imagine.”

    I cannot understand this… I understand that this story is a part of your chosen religion, and that puts it in a different category of “story”, but it’s barbaric – it’s the OPPOSITE Of “compassionate”!

    Looking at the story from a different angle shows just how sick it really is.

    If I were to say the following to you: “all of mankind sins. I can redeem you of these sins by (brutally) murdering my only son. He will suffer a torturous death over the course of several days. He will be dead for 3 days and then rise again. Sin will still exist though – so don’t stop coming to church!”

    What would you think? Would you consider it “compassionate” that I sent my son to his death in such a brutal way? How is it compassionate to kill my only son?

    It’s such a brutal and barbaric thing – that some people see “love” in this is beyond me!

    And that’s before we get into the ~why~ part. Why was this necessary? What’s with the violence, blood and suffering? What did it accomplish? How does this torture/suffering change anything about life on earth?

    The whole thing makes NO SENSE at all, and it’s barbaric to top it off… I’ll never understand religion I guess.

  22. 22
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    “The whole thing makes no sense at all, and it barbaric to top it off, I’ll never understand religion I guess.”

    Joe, you understand religion more that you realize. Your arguments are a good start, they just don’t go far enough.

    God is in the process of creating something from the Big Bang, until now. When Jesus died He said it was finished. However, because we are creatures of time and space we can’t see the finish.

    Its kinda like my wife who will soon be making a great Irish stew. During the process of gathering, cutting, chopping and boiling we have to wait. When the stew is finished, she waits a day for it to settle, and the whole family enjoys the finished product.

    Jesus, said that no greater love can a person have than to lay their life down for another person.

    Jesus, laid His life down, not just for you and me, but for the whole world.

    God is Great.

  23. 23
    Joe Agnost Says:

    “Jesus, said that no greater love can a person have than to lay their life down for another person.”

    I disagree whole heartedly. I can imagine ~some~ cases where this would be ‘admirable’, but never ‘loving’. Equating suicide with love just doesn’t compute with me…

    “Jesus, laid His life down, not just for you and me, but for the whole world.”

    If this is true then my reaction would be: ‘what a waste of life!!’.

    What did his suicide accomplish? Who is better off after he spent days being tortured on a cross? What is the point to subjecting yourself to torture – I just don’t see the upside…

    (btw – You might not convince about god, but you sure do make me want a big bowl of irish stew!) 😉

  24. 24
    Chimera Says:

    “Its only Jesus…”

    Not original, Peter. Jesus is Mithra. Catholicism is reheated Zoroastrianism. This link will get you started on your reading:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra

    “God is Great.”

    In another language and in the context of another religion, that’s pronounced, “Allahu Akbar.” And it’s often misused there, as well.

  25. 25
    Chimera Says:

    “What did his suicide accomplish?”

    Oooh, good question, Joe!

    And if Jesus was not only allowed to commit suicide, but encouraged to do so by his supposed “father,” (does anyone realize that counselling suicide is called murder?), then how come the Church says that suicide is not only a “sin” but an irredeemable “sin,” and that anyone who commits suicide will never be allowed into heaven, wherever that is? And can never be “reconciled” with god, whatever that means?

    So…god murdered his offspring and now has permanently disowned him and refuses to acknowledge him? *shakes head* Soooooo glad I’m not part of this insanity.

  26. 26
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Chimera, Catholicism believes in a triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    The Holy spirit is like an” underground river” Meister Eckhart, She pops up in all traditions and is the third person of the Holy Trinity but one God.

    I like “God is Great” I believe comes from our brothers and sisters in the Muslim tradition.

  27. 27
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Joe and Chimera, Jesus by laying His life down did not commit suicide.
    He asked His Father to forgo his death and added not my will but your will be done.

    God wanted His Son to equate with all of creation, everything dies, that is God’s plan. Without death there can be no resurrection.

    Jesus died and rose from the dead. He became human so we could become divine, so that when we die we will rise from the dead as well.

    Shh. don’t you guys get.

  28. 28
    Chimera Says:

    “Jesus by laying His life down did not commit suicide.”

    That’s a matter of personal interpretation. It’s the way I interpret it.

  29. 29
    Chimera Says:

    I should add that it’s the way I interpret the myth. I’m not convinced that anyone named Jesus actually really existed on earth. He’s not mentioned in any history books I know of. Anyone who has knowledge of history (not religious texts) where he’s mentioned, please feel free to give me the title and author of the book and I’ll check it out.

  30. 30
    SUZANNE Says:

    Neil

    The teaching is this: if you are a Catholic, you may not act in a fashion that permits or encourages grave evil.

    If you are a Catholic politician, and you promote grave evil, you must be disciplined.

    If the non-Catholic electorate does not like that, they are certainly free to express themselves through their votes.

    You don’t stop being Catholic when you’re elected. You don’t become a different person just because you’re elected.

  31. 31
    SUZANNE Says:

    Catholicism is reheated Zoroastrianism.

    That is bull. Those are theories promoted by people with no sense of historical criticism.

  32. 32
    SUZANNE Says:

    I’m not convinced that anyone named Jesus actually really existed on earth.

    This is historical revisionism on a ridiculous scale. The Gospels are historical books. We know of letters of people who knew the apostles. They got information from the apostles themselves.

    The whole idea of Jesus-did-not-exist is brainwash by people who just don’t want him to exist. If we applied the historical standards of revisionsists to other ancient figures, nobody would be said to exist.

  33. 33
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Chimera, “I am not convinced that anyone named Jesus actually existed on earth.”

    Our Lord was well aware of doubt. Thats why He told Thomas that because he has seen and believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and believe.

    Jesus didn’t have a secretary with Him recording His every word.

    Catholicism is an oral tradition, up until the printing press there were very few bibles around and they were locked up.

    Jesus didn’t want us to search for the historical Christ. Thats why He said that what you do for the least of these my brothers and sisters, you do for Me.

    All in all, all in one, all in God.

    God is Great.

  34. 34
    Joe Agnost Says:

    Peter: “He became human so we could become divine”

    What an odd method (becoming human) to achieve that result (our supposed divinity)! God is all powerful etc. right? What’s the point of killing his son (or allowing him to commit suicide) – and in such a bloody torturous way – why did it have to be that way? Why not do it in a more peaceful, oh, I don’t know… loving way??
    It just doesn’t add up as a “loving” act.

    It’s one of the strangest things about christianity (of any kind) IMO – that the brutal murder of JC (or suicide – however you view it) is a “loving act”… I can’t imagine seeing “love” in that barbarism.

    SUZANNE: “The whole idea of Jesus-did-not-exist is brainwash by people who just don’t want him to exist.”

    Who “doesn’t want him to exist”?? Why would anyone “not want him to exist”? What would be the point? You seem to think that Chimera ~knows~ JC existed but is gaining something by pretending that he didn’t – and that makes no sense. What would she have to gain.

    Side Note: I read over on another blog about a nasty nasty example of the “love” of the RCC… and it is brutal:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29515505/

    And then the story continues here:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm

    *****

    A little girl is raped by her step-dad – it’s been going on for 3 years. She is now 9 and pregnant with twins. Abortion is illegal in Brazil (where this is happening) unless medically necessary for the health of the mother.

    The doctors have said that this little 9 year old girl’s body can’t handle a twin pregnancy and that she needs an abortion… the RCC steps in and not only insult this little girl by saying she was “allegedly raped” – but they are trying to stop the abortion – forcing her to carry the twins to term regardless of the doctor’s expert opinions!

    It’s a sick sick example of all that is wrong with (organized) religion and the RCC in particular.

  35. 35
    Joe Agnost Says:

    Neil: you should blog about this brazil story I outlined in the comment above this one…. let’s hear what people think of that story!

  36. 36
    Joe Agnost Says:

    Peter: “He became human so we could become divine”

    What an odd method (becoming human) to achieve that result (our supposed divinity)! God is all powerful etc. right? What’s the point of killing his son (or allowing him to commit suicide) – and in such a bloody torturous way – why did it have to be that way? Why not do it in a more peaceful, oh, I don’t know… loving way??
    It just doesn’t add up as a “loving” act.

    It’s one of the strangest things about christianity (of any kind) IMO – that the brutal murder of JC (or suicide – however you view it) is a “loving act”… I can’t imagine seeing “love” in that barbarism.

    SUZANNE: “The whole idea of Jesus-did-not-exist is brainwash by people who just don’t want him to exist.”

    Who “doesn’t want him to exist”?? Why would anyone “not want him to exist”? What would be the point? You seem to think that Chimera ~knows~ JC existed but is gaining something by pretending that he didn’t – and that makes no sense. What would she have to gain.

  37. 37
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    Joe, had Jesus died in his bed, you could then argue that He didn’t know the first thing about human sufferring and was a phony.

  38. 38
    Joe Agnost Says:

    “had Jesus died in his bed, you could then argue that He didn’t know the first thing about human sufferring and was a phony.”

    I’m not following you here… Why should he need to “know the first thing about human sufferring” to avoid being a phony??

    There are plenty of other reasons to call JC a phony… this is not a good excuse for the barbaric method of his suicide.

    *****

    Btw Peter – what do you think of this story about the RCC’s “love”? Just replace the ” dot ” with “.”.

    www dot msnbc dot msn dot com/id/29515505/

    And then the story continues here:

    news dot bbc dot co dot uk/2/hi/americas/7926694 dot stm

  39. 39
    Joe Agnost Says:

    Bump!

    I’m curious to see the reaction to the brazil abortion story I linked to above…. come on people – join me in my outrage, DOWN with the roman catholic church and their VILE beliefs!

  40. 40
    Chimera Says:

    “You don’t stop being Catholic when you’re elected.”

    Then, if you know you cannot resolve the conflict between your religious convictions and the job for which you are applying, the answer is simple: don’t stand for election. Otherwise, you are committing fraud.

    “This is historical revisionism on a ridiculous scale.”

    If you’re talking about the church’s theft of the original myth of Mithra, you’re absolutely right.

    “The Gospels are historical books.”

    Well, so is Nosferatu, but I don’t see anyone worshipping a vampire.

    “We know of letters of people who knew the apostles. They got information from the apostles themselves.”

    Prove it. And even if you could, if that kind of “evidence” wouldn’t get into a courtroom, why should anyone allow it into their lives otherwise?

  41. 41
    Chimera Says:

    “I’m curious to see the reaction to the brazil abortion story I linked to above…”

    It’s all over the place on other blogs, Joe.

    I said it on Unrepentant Old Hippie (link on my own blog’s sidebar if you want to track it…I don’t want to impose too much on Neil’s hospitality here)…I’m almost at the point of declaring the Catholic hierarchy a terrorist organization and its strictest adgerents as criminals. What they’re allowing — nay, forcing this little girl to go through is both terrorizing and criminal!

    Suzanne, of course, is defending the church and their activities with her very alleged soul.

  42. 42
    Joe Agnost Says:

    “I don’t want to impose too much on Neil’s hospitality here”

    True – that’s why I asked him to start a thread on this… I’ve been over at JJ’s place too, but I want to hear from people like Peter (in other words: catholics) and see what they think about it.

    Suzanne is a nasty piece of work – and I ~hope~ not indicative of the general RC population… That’s why I’d like to hear from moderate catholics on this!

    So Neil: Want to start a new thread on this? 🙂

  43. 43
    neilmckentyweblog2 Says:

    Joe,

    I am more than happy to have the discussion of the baby in Brazil here. Am not quite sure what you mean by starting a new thread.

    From all I can tell Suzanne is a thoughtful mature woman. Although I do not agree with her on abortion, she expresses a valid and widely held view.

  44. 44
    Peter LeBlanc Says:

    There are a couple or three of you guys that I told before , I don’t google. You are enough googles to satisfy me. I am always happy to hear what you think and not someonelse’s thoughts.

    I am a free thinker and fiercely independent. I am a seeker of truth. Jesus said He is the truth.

    I have questioned Jesus in more ways than you can imagine and have never found Him wanting.

  45. 45
    Chimera Says:

    “Am not quite sure what you mean by starting a new thread.”

    Neil, a thread is a post with a unique topic and its own title. We make comments on threads. Ain’t jargon fun? 😉

    “Suzanne…expresses a valid and widely held view.”

    Not when it comes to an abused, raped, and pregnant nine-year-old girl, she doesn’t.


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